Finally A Decent Debate...

To vote or not to vote that is the question.

I say to vote!

I know, most of you are not of age to vote or don't live in the States... but that doesn't mean we can't have a mock vote!

So here is what i want you guys to do!

1. PM ME YOUR VOTES! THEY WON'T COUNT UNLESS THEY ARE PMED... I won't judge you everyone is entitled to their opinion.

2. Debate here why you want the person to win.

I will post the results after 12:01 on November 5, 2008.

YOU HAVE THIS ENTIRE WEEK TO VOTE!!! SO GO ON AND VOTE!!!

All ages and countries welcomed in this vote!

Wow Alu, this is a great idea! I applaud you.

McCain.... obama is an abortion... just ask my BF vampirella

McCain is a heartbeat away from death... if he dies, Palin is our President and then we are up shite creek.

Obama is for change... and how can you be an abortion... that sentence doesn't make sense hun.

McCain was also a prisoner of war... how do we know if he wasn't brainwashed. Cause there is that chance!

XXTeamBellaXX wrote:

McCain.... obama is an abortion... just ask my BF vampirella

Not to be a BADWORD! or anything, but that's just stupid.

You can't BE an abortion, and Obama isn't even Pro-Abortion, he's Pro-Choice. There's a difference.

Ok... Rant aleart here. Obama will make a great prez. Just As you say about McCain, Aluna, he is way to old. He was born in 1936. HE HAS FREAKING HEART PROBLEMS. I get freaking teased and bullied at school because I am an Obama supporter and I am sick of it. I DO NOT want McCain is office. People say 'Oh, Obama's Musslim, he's a terriorist, hes gonna bring the troops back in and have the war here'.I say, 'So? Im Bapist! Is that going to hurt me if I want to run for prez?' Obama is NOT a terririst. he is not going to make it where we go to school 7 days a week, he is not going to make summer break 2 weeks long. I live in Arkansas. Back then, Arkansas was slave central. Arkansas is just RACIST. And, to all of those people in my class- no- SCHOOL that when Obama becomes prez. and is the best thing that happend to this country, I'm going to be laughing in your face.

Whoa. Rant alert was right

In my school, we're actually having a mock election. Schools all across America are. Did you know, that this little mock election has (for the past five elections) shown who would be President? Kids vote in this mock election, and for the past twenty years with only one exception have predicted the President of the USA. Awsome, isn't it?

I'm voting for Obama. I don't want to put a reason, because I'll rant for five pages. If you want to know that bad you can PM me, but my vote is for Obama

My vote is for McCain.
Why?
Because if Obama is president, the taxes are going to go through the roof. He wants to tax the rich more to help the poor. Wow, alright. In my opinion, that's pretty dumb. You're basically punishing people for doing well and giving some of the people who don't work at all the hardworkers money. Great thinking there.
Another thing, youall talk about how awful Palin is. Ok, sure. But what about Joe Biden? Have you ever wondered why he isn't in interviews or anything? Apparently, the Obama campaign paid him to shut his mouth and not say anything because he's so stupid. Plus, the media is out to get Palin. And personally, I think all of you that talk about how stupid she is and how we're screwed if she becomes president are just oblivious to what's actually going on. I'd be really interested to see what would happen if Biden was put under as much scruntiny.
Ok lastly, Obama wasn't even born in the US. They never verified that his birth certificates were valid or not. He said he was born in Hawaii, but seriously? His certificates were printed out. Back in those days, all the birth certificates were handwritten. Yeah ok, call me on that one. That's just my own fishy opinons.

Last thing I want to put out there. You shouldn't not vote for someone because he's old. News flash: Freakin' all the presidents are old, except Obama. Another thing too: Don't vote/ not vote for someone 'cause their black or are a woman. It's 2008, grow up people.

Okay Anna, Obama wants to tax the rich, but are the rich and the hardworking really the same? Sure, being a wal mart cashier who makes fifteen thousand dollars a year may not be a job for the educated, but someone has to do it and that doesn't mean it's not work! Reese Witherspoon makes sixteen million dollars for every movie she makes, you don't think that's a little unfair to the nurse who works four twelve hour shifts a week to make 40,000 a year?

Okay, so maybe Palin and Biden are equal (and I disagree on that one, the McCain campaign talks so much about Obama not being experienced enough...what experience does she have?) but here's a statistic for you: McCain has a 25% chance of dying in office, of natural causes. Obama has a 2% chance of dying in office from ANYTHING. She deserves more scrutiny, it's more likely that she would become president.

Also, your last point is just ridiculous. Being born on US soil is a REQUIREMENT to run for president, you think they just overlooked that? If there was any speck of reality to that rumor it would be a much bigger deal than it is.

Of course, I totally agree with the part about basing your vote on race or sex. That's just ignorance.

Here's my election comic of the day:
http://superpoop.com/ANOTHER-RACIST.jpg

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. My mom happens to be that nurse that makes around 50,000 a year. So don't be saying what's fair and what's not. And to bring ethics into this, I don't like the Pro-Choice thing. Abortion is murder.

Ok sure 20%. But why isn't Biden being scruntized AT All? Oh, maybe it's because the media is so f***ing liberal that they want to make Palin look horrible. 2% is still a chance. I mean, Obama isn't my cup of tea, but I would move if Biden became president. Our economy would go through the sh***er.

And as for experience, Palin has more than Obama. He was what, a SENATOR? For how long? You wouldn't let a person who has 2 hours of flying lessons fly you in a plane, would you?

As much as I hate how this is going to turn out, Obama is probably going to win, just because the media is too influencial and more people are going to vote to prove they aren't 'racist' or want to support a black person. I mean, there's still a chance for McCain though. Obama could win the popular vote but then McCain could win the electoral college. It'll be interesting..

So twirls, I guess you're for Obama?

Yeah Anna, my mom's that same nurse, so don't tell me what I can and cannot say.

And no one seems to understand the difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion! OF COURSE PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE ABORTIONS. OBAMA NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD.

Of COURSE the media wants to make her look horrible. The media wants to make everyone look horrible, and she's an easy target.

As for experience, MCCAIN IS A F*CKING SENATOR. He hasn't even been in the senate as long as Biden, either! And Palin's been governor of ALASKA for what, two years? Biden's been in the Senate since 1972, actually, as opposed to McCain's 1986. I wouldn't call that two hours of flying lessons. Also, Obama's been in the Senate since 2004, which is still longer than Palin's been governor!

To go a little more in depth on Palin, before she was governor she was Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska (pop. 6,300), a position described as largely ceremonial. So there you go.

And yeah, I'm for Obama.

Alright. I just thought of something to add on to your little rant about McCain's being old and Obama's 2% chance of dying. Where did you get that statistic from? Because when you think about it, Obama has such as much of the same chance as dying because he'd have a high risk of getting assasinated.

And I wasn't referring to Biden having no experience. I was talking about Obama, who happens to be running for PRESIDENT. I'm sorry, but I'd rather vote for a man who was a POW and a senator. Why did you say McCain was a f*cking senator? Obama is too. That's where he should stay though.

Do you really want our country to become socialist? Because that's his views and I don't agree at all. Tax the rich and give to the poor? Let's leave that to Robin Hood.

Here's some food for thought: Apparently Obama and his wife use to attend Flag burning ceremonies. He wants to change the National Anthem.
He's NOT an American!!

And I'm starting to get really passionate about this now because I just had this huge debate all day and I'm sick of people thinking Obama is going to change America for the bettter. People think that just because he's young, he has fresh ideas. If he's going to bring so much change, why did he pick a freaking old senator for VP who is super set on his own ideas? And honestly, Palin being an easy target? What's that about. If she doesn't respond to the interviews, then she's STILL picked on. Biden doesn't respond to interviews. Is he picked on? Well now...

Ah and can you just tell me what you see in Obama that makes you want to elect him to lead our country?

You know what, that's true. He probably does have a high risk of being assassinated. Hmm...what other presidents were assassinated? Oh, that's right. JFK, Abraham Lincoln...both people who were amazingly good for our country. Now, that's crappy logic and I'll admit to it, but I'm trying to think...why could anyone want to shoot Obama? OH RIGHT. They're racist.

You're right, you weren't referring to Biden having no experience, you were comparing Obama to Palin. I mean really, if we're comparing vice presidents and presidents, why shouldn't Biden be brought into this? Isn't one of your major points the fact that he's not being brought up much at all?

As for the socialism thing, fine. I'll admit he thinks we should tax the rich and give to the poor, but is that so absolutely unreasonable? When you give to the poor, they stop being poor. And if the rich are as ridiculously wealthy as some of them are, they're going to stay rich. So please, explain to me what's bad about getting rid of poor people. Plus, giving money to the poor means their kids can get a better education (and thus get better jobs, so that they don't end up poor).

Here's what I think: Saying that the rich shouldn't try to help the poor? THAT'S un-American. It's something that helps the nation as a whole.

Now, before I call you out on the Flag Burning thing, I'll give you a chance: where the h-e-double hockeysticks did you get that 'food for thought'? I'm not going to completely deny it because I trust you, but I'd honestly like to know.

Assuming that it is a realistic fact, let me give you some food for thought: When a flag is so tattered that can no longer serve as a symbol of the
United States, it should be destroyed in a dignified manner, preferably
by burning. The American Legion and other organizations regularly
conduct dignified flag-burning ceremonies, often on Flag Day, June 14.

And Anna, it's not my fault Palin is being scrutinized. That's the society we live in. The first rule of advertising: Sex sells. People are more interested in hearing about a forty something woman than a sixty something man. The Media knows this. Don't try to pin it on anything else.

And now, down to the real question! What do I see in Obama? I agree with his positions. He shares my beliefs, far more than McCain or Barr does. It's pretty simple: I AGREE WITH HIM. You asked me what I see in Obama: you want me to have a personal reason for supporting him? You want to make this about who's 'the better person'? I think that's ridiculous, personally. This should be about the issues, about what's good for our country. Not about personality, not about history.

This may sound bad, and you can probably refute it, but it doesn't seem to me like being a POW is going to make McCain any better at being president, or like not having been one will hurt Obama. That's not to say I don't realize what a terrible experience it must have been and respect him for serving in the military.

I'm not supporting Obama because of who he is: in fact, I discourage it. Race, age, or anything of the likes shouldn't determine anyone's vote. I'm supporting him because of the things he believes, the things he says he wants to change. You're sick of people thinking he'll change America for the better? Well, sorry, but it's a common position. And hey, maybe all those people are sick of you thinking McCain will.

Here are some interesting blogs I found via the amazing powers of the internet. You can argue with them or not, but these pretty much explain my whole view.

Quote :

Barack Obama’s rise to fame is a mystery. He is an unknown, inexperienced junior senator with no accomplishments. There is no content to his speeches. He preaches change for the sake of change, but fails to explain in full how that change will be brought about.

Here is what we do know about Barack Obama.

He claims to be against going to war in Iraq from the beginning. Perhaps he would have voted against it in 2002, had he been there to make a vote. But, in reality, his history of being against the war is hardly a staunch opposition as he claims; and is rather a more nuanced and cautious position on the war than the full-bore opposition.

He has repeatedly told America that as president he will end the war, leaving us to believe he will conduct an immediate withdrawal of all troops, leaving Iraq bare and unprotected, an action that even Joe Lieberman claims would create a more dangerous world, and create a safe haven for terrorists. Question: Mr. Obama, if we pull out of Iraq, what do you think will happen after that? Utopia?

Recently, Barack Obama has been urging us to negotiate with the terrorists, to sit down and have a heart to heart talk with the Islamic Jihad and the nations that sponsor such terrorism.

In a rational world with a rational enemy, Mr. Obama’s recommendation would be a solid one. Of course it is better to try to talk things out with someone before committing to a bloody battle or war. We tell our kids to talk before fighting. We talked to the Soviets. We talked to China. Of course, when the left uses those examples, they fail to recognize that it wasn’t presidential visits with the Soviet Union that brought down the Berlin Wall. The Soviet Union collapsed because President Ronald Reagan bankrupted the Soviet Union with a military buildup. And we didn’t decide to talk to the Chinese because we feared them. We talked with the Chinese because we wanted to drive a wedge between them and the Soviet Union.

Besides, Islam is not an ideology of rationality. They have committed to eradicating Israel, and destroying The West.

In his inexperience, Barack Obama has not thought through this issue. By his statements on foreign policy he is showing America how new to this he really is. And folks, inexperience like this is the last thing we need in the White House when it comes to foreign policy during a time of war with an enemy like none we have ever faced before.

A premature pull-out of Iraq would essentially be handing over Iraq to the Islamic Jihad so that the region could be a base of operations for terrorist activity, as well as providing additional funding for their ambitions of world domination by way of Iraq’s oil riches. A withdrawal from Iraq would also send the message that America is unwilling to complete its commitments, and that when faced with the adversity of a ruthless enemy, we are weak and are willing to turn-tail and run.

But the reasons for not withdrawing from the region prematurely goes deeper than that. One must enter the mind of the Islamic Jihadists to understand the mentality of who we are dealing with, and why withdrawal, or negotiations with an enemy that brings nothing to the table except the will to defeat us, would be disastrous.

I believe that Islam is an inherently violent religion, but that there is a large number of Muslims who are unaware of Muhammad’s evil actions and his call to violence. Islamic clerics are loath to teach their people about their faith’s dark deeds. Islam has made itself an enemy to all that does not adhere to its rules, and only understands violence as a means of dealing with its enemy. Only strength will be successful against the Islamic threat, and concessions, negotiations, and the withdrawal of forces is seen as a weakness by the Jihadists. And signs of weakness are answered with aggressive action.

Answer me this. After Israel pulled out of Gaza, how long did it take before Hamas proclaimed victory, and then began lobbing rockets over the border at Israel?

Barack Obama has also indicated that he plans to cut investments in “unproven missile defense systems.”

That’s brilliant. The missile defense system, for one, is not unproven - in fact, our technology along those lines was crucial in bringing down a crippled satellite recently. Besides, if you are so determined to rid the world of nuclear weapons, why would you discontinue a program that would essentially make long-range missiles obsolete?

He also wishes to slow the development of future combat systems.

Uh, Mr. Obama, how do you wish this nation to defend itself? With sticks and stones? Believe it or not, talking doesn’t work with irrational tyrants. Just ask Neville Chamberlain.

Unilateral disarmament does not work, either, Barack. If we disarm, the enemy must do the same as well. If they don’t, and we do, they will perceive themselves as stronger, and attack. That, Mr. Obama, is how tyrants in the real world play the game.

Obama supports the gruesome partial-birth abortion. Partial Birth Abortion is killing a child in the womb that is far enough along in pregnancy to survive outside the womb. Any abortion, in my opinion, is murder, but “late term abortion” is especially horrid.

I am taking Obama’s word that he is not Muslim. However, Barack Obama was raised around the Muslim culture, and one’s life experiences shape who you are. Therefore, though Barack Hussein Obama may not be Muslim, because of his upbringing, he will undoubtedly be sympathetic to Islam. And as I stated earlier, Islam is a religion rooted in violence and hate dreamed up by a murderous pedophile named Muhammed. The jihadists have a very real goal of converting us to their false religion, or destroying us in the process, and any sympathy to this murderous enemy is foolish, and irresponsible. I wonder, though, considering all of the Muslims in Obama’s life, how the Islamic Jihadists view Obama. Do they see him as a fellow Muslim? Or an apostate?

Understand, I realize that not all of the citizens of these Islamic Dictatorships are the problem. In fact, the population of Iran is very pro-American (residual from the popularity of the Shah, and his pro-American attitude), and Christianity is the fastest growing religion in that country.

When we entered World War II we did not go to war against the German People, but against Nazism and Fascism. Now, we are at war with Islamism, a fascist tyranny spreading across the globe, and Barack Obama’s weakness regarding Foreign Policy (lack of experience, talking to the irrational) would place us in great jeopardy.

That’s not even counting his liberal viewpoints of Government Control over the citizens, a Health Care program similar to Europe and Canada’s Universal Health Programs (think about it: do you really want the same government that runs DMV to run your health insurance programs?). If the current health insurance system is so bad, then why would government wish to keep the same model, but change the payer of that system over to the same government who didn’t get the postal service running in New Orleans until 3 months after Hurricane Katrina, while Federal Express was delivering to the area in a week, and UPS in three weeks? (source: Winning the Future by Newt Gingrich)

Of course this is a man that is a member of the Democrat Party, the same party that has decided Income Taxes Are Voluntary, even though you are forced to pay them

http://douglasvgibbs.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/why-obama-is-bad-for-america/


And here's a great article about Obama's birth certificate being a forgery, which it is because he was NOT born in the U.S. And it is a pretty big deal; the media just 'overlooks' it.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html

Here's a lovely quote from the guy you want a heartbeat away from being President:
Biden-- ""Mark my words," the Democratic vice presidential nominee warned at the second of his two Seattle fundraisers Sunday. "It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. We're about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America. Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy."

Wow. That's comforting to know that there's going to be an international crisis once Obama gets into office.


Oh and going back to the whole abortion thing. You say Obama's AGAINST abortion? Wait. You said 'he never said they should.' Right, so then it's ok for him to want to make it legal to have an abortion far enough along in the pregnancy that the baby could survive outside the womb? That's still a life, and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to make that legal.

I'll write more later;; I'm going to bed but I just wanted to get that much out there.

Okay, abortion and healthcare are the two things that really make me mad. So let's focus on those:

Since we're using blogs on this, I think I'll quote a friend of mine, Angela:

Quote :

People don't want to ruin their lives for unwanted children, so they
would have abortions, legal or not. Secondly, do you really want to
bring children into the world whose parents never loved or wanted them?
If a woman wants her baby, shell keep it. If she doesn't want it, it
would be cruel and socially impractical to bring it into the world.
Lastly, fetuses are not self aware-it is from this self-awareness that
gives us our sense of basic dignity and inviolable rights. The needs of
the mother outweigh the needs of the unborn lump of one-day sentient
flesh. Finally, it is true what Ryan says, no one has the right to
force their will on another- ESP. not the government. When the
government can force us into having children, it can force us into
pretty much anything else. So therefore, if you disagree with abortion
then do not have one, but it is not the place of the secular, universal
government of this country to follow your religion for you.

In answer to your question, yes, it's okay. I don't support abortion, I think it's horrid. I'd also like to point out that he wouldn't be making it legal, he'd have to make it illegal. Without a law against it, an action is inherently legal. HOWEVER, though I am strongly opposed to abortion, I think it's absolutely and entirely unacceptable for a government to legislate the issue. When did the government get the power to decide what we can and cannot do with our bodies? The moment we say no one can have an abortion, you also give the government the power to say that everyone has to have an abortion!

It's just nonsensical.

NOW! Healthcare!

Face it: the system in Europe and Canada works! I'm assuming you realize that, because the article you sited mostly says 'even if it works for them, our government isn't responsible enough for that'. Sure, DMVs suck, but hey, it's not like our current system is great.

I mean, there are the people without insurance who can't afford to go to the doctor or an ER, the people with insurance sitting in an ER waiting room for a full 24 hours...it's not working. Maybe the change wouldn't be good, but we obviously need to try something else. The government's not ready to handle it? So let's fix that first! If you're saying you don't think not everyone should have healthcare, I say that's just absurd.

Now, the Biden quote: notice how he said a generated crisis. Is that Obama's fault? Does it somehow make him a worse candidate that the world is literally going to provide a disaster for him to clean up? You can't blame him for that, you can only blame yourself and the rest of the people CAUSING the problem. What, do you think he's not going to try to fix it if something does happen?

As to this birth certificate stuff, (again, if you're using the internet) here's a screenshot of a snopes article:



Haha. This is really fun. Thank you for not being an idiot, Anna, and capable of an intellectual discussion.

Hahah.
Ok I'm done debating. I'm not into politics enough to actually draw this out.
I actually hate all politicians.

And Twirls, you have some really good points; I just don't agree with them

But I do want to just say this because the one issue I care about is abortion. You asked how the government could make abortion illegal? Well... how did they make murder illegal? It's the same thing. That is a PERSON growing inside the mother. Yeah okay, maybe the parents don't want it or won't love it. Is that even a logical reason as to why it shouldn't be given a chance? There are so many people out there that want children but can't have them. That's what ADOPTION is. People need to be responsible for their actions. Does it make sense for people to make bad choices and then fix it by killing an innocent child? And this is not telling you what you can and cannot do with your body. Once you become pregnant, you're dealing with TWO bodies. Plus, everyone knows the consequences of having sex. If you can't deal with it, then don't do it. Simple as that.

Ohh and I just wanted to share this with you all. Today at my school we had a mock election, and I voted, of course, for McCain, who won by 15 votes. Kind of interesting considering that I live by Chicago, which is quite liberal.

So, good luck to everyone voting today! I respect you all, no matter who you voted for. (: And good luck to whatever candidate wins! It'll be interesting to see

greenpixie1797 wrote:

Whoa. Rant alert was right

In my school, we're actually having a mock election. Schools all across America are. Did you know, that this little mock election has (for the past five elections) shown who would be President? Kids vote in this mock election, and for the past twenty years with only one exception have predicted the President of the USA. Awsome, isn't it?

I'm voting for Obama. I don't want to put a reason, because I'll rant for five pages. If you want to know that bad you can PM me, but my vote is for Obama

Yeah, my school had a mock election last week. I voted for Obama for several reasons. But I tend to avoid politics whenever I can.

McCain won our mock election too, but I live in Texas (and Texans love them some guns)

Anyhoo, I'm quite pleased with our new president elect. YAY FOR DEMOCRACY!

RALPH NADER!

...has been trying to become president since nineteen seventy two

Its about time =]

Nah, it's time for someone else.

It was so interesting reading all of your debate points, Anna and Twirls I love a debate that has awsome points, reasonings, and in the end no one is pissed because they're grown up about what they are disscussing

i dont liek debates becuase the first time i did one i had the worste team who did nothing and compleatly stuffed it up i ende dup having a compleat melt down

Rant aleart again. *its morning, im irratible, and annoyed* Listen, Obama is now our prez elect ok? So why dont we just end this freaking thread? You should have seen me about two or three weeks ago. I was sitting in class, minding my own biz, and working on our science assinment, when someone came up to my and gave me a note. It said McCain '08. I freaking out. I stood up, knocking someone over, and yelled 'Who wrote this?'. I started to cry in front of the entire class. And just because some idiot decided to bully me again! I have been bullied at school because im for Obama. And you all know that. I am sick and tired of hereing people say 'Obama is going to take all the mexicans back to mexico.' He is not going to do that! In fact, on of my friends friend is mexican. Do you really think that it goes over very well with her? No. But, the freaking election is over. Obama is our presidant elect. My school also had a mock election. Obama got 100 votes. McCain got 500. As one McCain supporter on my bus said one time, "Obama is our new presidant, we might as well support him." My, and my father compleatly agree with her. Obama is our new presidant, So build a bridge, and GET OVER IT!

Um, Moodz, if you don't like debates, not to be rude, but you can leave the thread. This is a mature, decent debate, no one said you had to read it. I'm sorry that you know people who aren't mature about their views in some matters such as this, but no one here was being rude about it. We all know Obama is the president now, it doesn't mean we have to stop sharing our views on it.